How do you get a mental health diagnosis for your child? And what is an ADHD or anxiety diagnosis good for? Lynn also answers a listener question about the dynamic when there’s an anxious parent and a laid-back parent.
1:00 Lynn provides an overview of getting a child a mental health diagnosis and asks th4e questions all parents should consider. How do you get one? Do you need one?
8:26 Lynn explains the right way to think about a diagnosis and its role in treating a child or teen. She explains a child’s diagnosis is often a family diagnosis and references the book Anxious Kids, Anxious Parents that give families a roadmap after an anxiety diagnosis.
She talks about how a depression, anxiety or ADHD diagnosis affects all members of the family and how to stop accommodating the diagnosis.
12:47 We talk about siblings of the diagnosed child and how they experience the disorder.
17:28 Robin talks about why she love her Circle to manage screen time with her kids. Our affiliate link will get you $20 off of a Circle.
18:10 Robin reads a listener question by a parent who is married to someone with anxiety and depression that has increased from the stress of two children, one with special needs and work.
Additional Books and Podcasts for Parents with Special Needs Kids
Shut Up About Your Perfect Kid Podcast
The Mama Bear podcast
Join the Flusterclux Facebook group so that you can ask Lynn a question in a future episode.
Lynn Lyons 0:00
In our last episode, we discussed anxiety’s early signs, the things that parents might observe in their children and teens, what to look for, and how to stay on top of it— even get ahead of it.
Today, we’re going to have a discussion for families where maybe the anxiety or the depression has already sort of settled in, in a way. Maybe it’s already gotten a little bit of a foothold in your family. Maybe you think your child needs a diagnosis, or maybe they already have one.
How do you do that? How do you go about getting a diagnosis? What does it mean? And what is a diagnosis good for? I’m also going to answer a question from a listener whose spouse is the anxious one. And how this dynamic of an anxious parent and a laid-back parent can be a little tricky to navigate.
Hi, I’m Lynn Lyons. I’m a psychotherapist, and anxiety expert, and author. And I’m here with my sister in law and producer, Robin, for another episode of Flusterclux. Hi, Robin.
Robin Hutson 0:54
Lynn Lyons 0:55
How’s it going?
Robin Hutson 0:56
It’s going well.
Lynn Lyons 1:00
The number of diagnoses that kids are getting—that teenagers are getting— it’s growing all the time in this country. And there are more diagnoses that come out all the time. The diagnoses change, and they switch and they evolve. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But I think it’s important to talk about getting a diagnosis for your child. Is that a good thing? Or is it a bad thing? How can it help? And how can it get in the way of you figuring out what to do for your child?
So, as somebody who has been in this field for 30 years, I have seen a lot of changes, a lot of good adaptations, a lot of interesting movements in certain directions, a lot of diagnoses that come and go. And I just think it’s important to talk as parents are sort of wading into this mental health world which I spend a lot of time in. What really does it mean when your child gets a diagnosis? And what makes it helpful and not helpful?
One of the first questions that people ask me is, how do I get a diagnosis for my child? And do I need a diagnosis for my child?
And I think the best way to think about it is that sometimes a diagnosis allows you to get more services. So, there are many requirements in schools, for example, and sometimes even being a part of certain groups or going to certain places where you can get help, they really require that somebody has given you a diagnosis.
Other times you might get a diagnosis that… say you’re going for some anxiety treatment, but you also have a diagnosis that might indicate that you’re using substances or that your behavior is very oppositional. That oftentimes that will prevent you from getting treatment in the mental health field. There are diagnoses that definitely have different connotations, for sure.
Robin Hutson 2:59
It’s interesting. You’re talking about diagnoses that, as a lay person, these are on the more serious side. But in fact, what you’re talking about that is growing in number at such a rapid rate are on the opposite side, the diagnoses that are very specific, certain types of anxiety disorders.
How To Get A Diagnosis For Your Child
Lynn Lyons 3:18
Right. And again, it’s not bad to get a diagnosis. One, you should get it from somebody who knows what they’re doing. And let’s dispel some of the myths about how you get a diagnosis. Because a lot of people think that you get a diagnosis through some sort of maybe a blood test or there are people who do brain scans or there’s some sort of form that you fill out that’s very definitive about whether or not you have this diagnosis.
The way that most kids are given a diagnosis is because they go see a pediatrician, or they go see their family practitioner, or they go see a licensed mental health person like me. Sometimes it’s done by a school psychologist, or they get a neuro psych eval, which can be pretty thorough and helpful.
And oftentimes, when pediatricians— when doctors— give a mental health diagnosis, they very frequently then urge the parents to seek out more specialized treatment. A lot of parents actually don’t follow through with getting more specialized counseling or therapy, because it’s hard and it’s expensive. And lots of times it’s not it’s not accessible.
So, the whole area of diagnosis, I think, sort of the whole area of diagnosis is a little tricky, and it can be confusing for parents. And I think that one of the things that happens is that you believe if you get a diagnosis, that that’s sort of the answer to the problem, that “Oh, gosh, finally I’ve got a diagnosis.”
Now, that has happened many times in my practice where there has been a child or a teenager that’s really been struggling. Sometimes it even happens with adults, and nobody really knows what’s going on. Or they’ve gone to different people, or you know, your Uncle Frank offers his opinion. Or they go to the pediatrician who’s trying to sort things out, and then they end up coming to see me.
And what’s going on with your child is absolutely textbook of an anxiety disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder, or it’s very clear that this child has symptoms of fill in the blank or is doing the patterns associated with fill in the blank. And then suddenly, there’s clarity. Right? Now we have a path.
A Diagnosis is a Start, not Finish Line, of Treatment
Robin Hutson 5:28
As you describe this, you have to think about the average parent with their child at the pediatrician’s office. There’s a very simplistic checklist about mental health. And if the child or the teen is a positive on certain questions, that’s clearly already been a very big stress for that family, right?
They know that their child is suffering in certain aspects or is having emotional challenges in other ways. So I think just the number of parents who are going into that and getting that information, already overwhelmed by what to do, to then have that ability to eventually end up in an office of a specialist like you, who then says, “This is what I do.” There’s just so many families who are going to get lost and sit in the wrong direction. Maybe this is an opportunity for you to help parents understand how to find the local resources that are the right fit for what’s going on.
Lynn Lyons 6:25
Yeah. And I think you bring up a very important point, because a lot of times when a family is struggling, and they know their child is struggling, and they’re very concerned about their teenager, and they even may think like, “Oh, my God, he’s just getting more and more depressed and more and more withdrawn.”
And then they go somewhere and somebody says, “I’m diagnosing you with depression,” then sometimes what happens is people say, “Oh, okay, so now he’s got a diagnosis,” and they feel like that’s the end of their journey. Not all the time, but they’re oh, so relieved. “Now we know what’s wrong.” As if, you know, now we’ve diagnosed you with strep throat. So now, we’re going to give you the antibiotics, and now you’re going to be better.
Or last summer when my son had this unbelievably horrible sore throat, and his face was swollen. He could barely open his mouth, and we didn’t know what was going on. And we take him to the emergency room.
Robin Hutson 7:14
Oh my God, that was the most disgusting story. I felt so bad for you. Oh, I was talking to you on the interstate when you were telling me about his abscess. Anyway, let’s not go there right now.
Lynn Lyons 7:27
Okay. Okay. All right. All right. So, back up. Okay. I think you bring up a really good point, Robin, because when a family is struggling, so your child is not going to school, or your teenager is isolating himself in his bedroom, or you notice that your daughter is doing some self-harm or things like that. And you go and get help and somebody says, so I am diagnosing your child with this. There’s a huge sense of relief, and sometimes sort of relief coupled with “Oh no, there is something wrong with my child.”
But sometimes parents think “Okay, so now I’ve got the answer. And now I’ve come to the end of this, because now I know what’s wrong with my child. Now I just need to fix it.”
I think that what parents really need to hear is that when somebody gives your child that diagnosis, that’s the beginning of the journey, not necessarily the end. Then what do you do with that diagnosis?
Robin Hutson 8:17
Most parents have already been overwhelmed by whatever has been, whatever the troubling patterns have been. Now you have a map, and you didn’t have one before, right?
Using the Diagnosis The Right Way
Lynn Lyons 8:26
So now you can figure out what the next steps are. Because now hopefully, there’s some clarity and maybe even some relief of sort of like, “Oh, this helps to explain things.”
And the really important thing for families for parents is, how are you going to use this diagnosis in a way that’s helpful? How are you going to use this map in a way that will really help you as a parent and help your child? And what are some of the things that happen when kids get a diagnosis that we want to pay attention to?
The way that it can be helpful is being able then to access the resources or access the information that tells you as a parent what to do.
An Anxiety Diagnosis is a Family Diagnosis
Now, you have to seek out the right information. So, there are a lot of books— Anxious Kids, Anxious Parents is one of them. Of course, we wrote… Reid and I wrote that book with the expressed purpose for parents who are looking, “Okay, so I’ve got this anxious kid. Now what do I do?”
Parents say, “tell me what to do.” The book Anxious Kids, Anxious Parents, kids need and parents need some good solid education about what makes the problem worse and what makes the problem better.
So now you have this diagnosis. And now you really want to start thinking about how you, as a family, are going to understand the patterns and the things that make anxiety worse and make anxiety better, the things that make ADHD worse and make ADHD better. The way that for example, ADHD and anxiety intersect. The way that anxiety leads into depression.
All of this information that really helps you understand this because the goal is to demystify it. So if— Robin will certainly put a list of the resources that I like in the show notes for this—because there are ones that are so concrete, but now that you’ve got this diagnosis, you can say, “Okay, this is what I know about the patterns. This is what I know about how this thing works. And these are the patterns that we need to work on as a family and as parents and as a school to interrupt.”
Robin Hutson 10:32
You always say when parents listen to you speak at the schools that you go around, you know, you really prefer treating families as a whole. As much as the treatment is part of the family process, how is the diagnosis a part of the family’s culture? Especially if they have more than one child? How does that all work?
Lynn Lyons 10:49
Let’s just talk about anxiety, for example. If a child is diagnosed with anxiety, then as I’ve said a lot, it’s very likely that probably that this is kind of an anxious family. So that the parents, there may be one parent or two parents or both parents or however many parents that are hanging around that they also have the diagnosis, or they also would fit the criteria for the diagnosis.
Because remember getting a diagnosis means you fit a list of criteria. When a family then has that diagnosis, let’s just call it the family diagnosis. That means that everyone in the family has to begin to look at how their behavior and how their patterns, how they’ve sort of fallen into doing the diagnosis.
Accommodating A Depression Diagnosis
If you have somebody who’s depressed in the family, how has that impacted the other people in the family? What is it like when you have a parent that’s depressed? Or what is it like when you’re a sibling of somebody who’s struggling with depression?
How has the family figured out how to accommodate the disorder? How have they figured out how to walk on eggshells around the disorder? And how have they — because they don’t have a lot of information about it — through their own fear or their own worry, how have they been reluctant to step in and talk and communicate about what’s going on in the family?
Then think of the diagnosis as just another person in the family now, right? That’s why I like to pull it out and give it a name. If you’ve got a kid who’s been diagnosed with OCD, we’re going to pull it out, and the OCD is sitting right there. And we’re going to look and see how the OCD controls the family.
If you’ve got a teenager who’s struggling with depression, we’re going to pull the depression right out. And we’re going to look and see what are the things that the parents can do to help? What are the patterns that we need to look at? What are the ways in which we want to foster connection? All of these things are really concrete things that can help when you have that diagnosis. Because now you can personify it. You can say, Well, this is what it does. This is how it operates.
Siblings and the Anxiety Diagnosis
Robin Hutson 12:47
When you see these families who have anxiety diagnoses, and you might have a family of four come in, how common is it even though I can appreciate that one child might manifest anxiety to a more extreme degree, do you ever encounter professionally where that second child is just, “Nope. All good.”
Lynn Lyons 13:05
Yeah, certainly there can be a sibling who’s really not anxious at all, and really doesn’t manifest symptoms at all and really isn’t a part of it. But if I were to ask that child, how do you think this impacts your relationship with your sibling? Or how does this impact your relationship with your parents?
Or what actually is enormously helpful when I have siblings in is, I say to the sibling, when you watch your parents interact with your brother, how do you see the anxiety playing itself out? Because many times with siblings, even if you know they’re not in the culture, per se, you know. They’re not anxious. They’re not depressed. They don’t have OCD. They are in the family, and so they’re asked to do certain things in order to accommodate.
There may be one sibling who’s totally laid back not really anxious, and they’ve got a sibling who’s really anxious about certain things. And so, when the family goes out to dinner, that sibling will say to me, “Well, I know we can only go to one of two restaurants that we’re allowed to go to. And I know that that I just have to be prepared, because 70% of the time we have to leave before our food arrives because my sister freaks out.
So, siblings give me a lot of good information. Grandparents do, too, actually. I’ve had really helpful sessions where a grandparent has come in and said, “Well, this is what I observe.” Which you can imagine, that’s a hard position to be in because they’re trying to be helpful. And there’s a lot of defensiveness with that.
So, when you get the diagnosis, right, so you have a diagnosis of depression, or you have a diagnosis of anxiety or social anxiety or separation, anxiety, all of that allows you as a family to begin to understand how it works. And then what are we going to do in order to break the patterns? How do we learn about this? And so, in that way, having a diagnosis is really helpful, because it’s that roadmap.
You know, there are so many different types of anxiety diagnoses, subsets. I’m imagining that you think it doesn’t really matter. It’s still an anxiety process. You don’t get too caught up in the specificity of it.
Are Social and Separation Anxiety Diagnosis Treatments Different?
I don’t. You know, if you if you look at anything that I write, except if I’m writing about OCD, because I do talk about that a little bit differently, but not it still has a lot, a lot of the same processes. But if you look at what I write, I don’t I don’t have a separate chapter on separation anxiety or a different way to treat social anxiety or a different way to treat a specific phobia. Somebody emailed me I was doing a talk the other day and somebody who was listening, put in the chat and he said, but what if it’s a specific phobia, same thing. Because the process is the same.
So, for me having a different diagnosis as a professional, right? When somebody comes to me and they say, “Well, my child has been diagnosed with this.” That just is a little bit of shorthand for me that I know what content I’m going to be dealing with.
So, I know if somebody says my child has separation anxiety. Well, I know how it’s going manifests that the place where it shows up is when they’re going to be separate from somebody they love. And they’re going to be worried about something happening to that person. And so, the family is really going to be centered around making sure that they’re in touch all the time.
I mean, I know what the patterns are going to be because the diagnosis is separation anxiety, but that’s just the content, the process is the same.
And actually, interestingly, like separation anxiety, if everybody thinks of separation anxiety does show up really early. But if it doesn’t go away, I’ve had teenagers that have a lot of separation anxiety, but then then we might see it be like social anxiety. So, it really is just kind of a little bit of a moving target. And oftentimes, if I’m talking to somebody who’s really, you know, say I am talking to a 17-year-old who’s really anxious, there’s gonna be a lot of different contents.
You know, it’s very rarely is it just like targeted on one thing. It really just likes to… it’s very versatile. Anxiety is very versatile. It likes to move out and grab on to new territory.
Robin Hutson 16:58
Yeah, it’s good that way.
Lynn Lyons 16:59
It is good that way. Yeah. It’s very it’s very flexible in its rigidity. The thing that’s cool about talking to kids and families when they come in and they you know, maybe they’ve gotten a diagnosis or whatever is it is really is. I mean, I hesitate to use this word, but it’s true. It really is kind of fun for me to be able to, to provide them that map to say, “Yeah, so this is how this thing works.”
Robin Hutson 17:28
Manage Screen Time With the Circle
I talk about it a lot, so I want to recommend what we use to manage screen time and internet safety in our house. We use the Circle, and it ensures age appropriate filters for searches from little kids to teens, and it lets you set daily limits for different apps and social media. It also controls your kids’ Wi Fi schedules. Our affiliate link will get you $20 off of a Circle, and I highly recommend one.
A Listener Question
So, we have a listener question, and one is talking about the “vanilla ice cream face” term that you use a lot, Lynn. So, before I read the question, I just want to give the listeners a heads up on what that means.
Because the way I interpret it is the vanilla ice cream face is a goal in parenting to remain in a neutral space that’s nonreactive so that your child’s emotional reaction is what’s at the center, so that you are engaging with your child not from a reactive place of anger or worry, but that you’re letting them be the center of the conversation, right?
Lynn Lyons 17:57
And I often say to parents, I want you to be vanilla ice cream, even if you’re feeling all these emotions inside when you’re interacting with your child if they’re having a tough time. You need to be vanilla ice cream. Because it is that just like neutral like anything goes with vanilla ice cream. We’re just going to be cool, and we’re going to be neutral.
Robin Hutson 18:10
My spouse is anxious and I’m not
Okay, so here is the listener question:
“Okay, could you provide advice for parents living with a highly anxious spouse and also an anxious young child. I’m the vanilla parent. I’ve always been very even tempered. However, my spouse is prone to anxiety and depression. He has always been, but the last ten years of marriage have been especially difficult due to the births of our two children, the oldest with special needs and due to establishing his career.
We met 10 years ago before the birth of our first child. I thought I knew him well. But the anxiety of these life changing events caused him was eye opening to me. Our marriage suffered, and my mental health suffered. I feel a lot of pressure to be the stable partner, sometimes to the point of resentment. After reaching several low spots over the last few years, I feel our situation has been improving somewhat. I have sought help for my own mental health, and he and I have been saving our marriage through difficult but necessary communication. It’s a work in progress, and I would love more insightful advice.”
Lynn Lyons 19:57
Okay, so this is not an unusual situation. And I talk a lot when I’m doing parent trainings and things because oftentimes there is one anxious parents or one parent who has been identified as the anxious parent and one parent that is not.
One of the dynamics that often happens is that the anxious parent sees the easygoing ness— if that’s a word— the easygoing-ness of the other parent as a sign of not paying enough attention, not being careful enough. And so, they’ll really ramp up their anxiety because they’re trying to compensate for what they perceive as the negligence of the easygoing parent.
So that’s an interesting dynamic because then what happens oftentimes is the easy-going parent starts to get pissed off at the over reactions of the anxious parent and then compensates by being even more easy going and making easy going in air quotes but oftentimes more risky with the kids.
So, the parents established this position of one’s anxious and one’s risky. The anxious one sees the risky one as being negligent, and the risky one sees the anxious one as being overprotective. And it is a really common dynamic and a really a corrosive dynamic in a relationship.
So, what was interesting to me there’s a few things that jumped out at me about this question. As soon as the mom, do I have that right? I think so based on pronouns, I’m not sure. She went and got help for her mental health. She says her mental health suffered because she was feeling resentful. And she went and got help for her mental health, and they’ve been working on their marriage by having some difficult but necessary communication. Fantastic.
I’m also wondering if the anxious person went and got help. Because it would be interesting to me if the really anxious person, the one who was really struggling, actually didn’t take responsibility for their patterns and go get some help.
Now me saying that probably is not going to help the resentment that you feel, Mom, but I think it’s really important that you not continue to carry the load of… not only seeing yourself as the stable one, but then also seeing as the one who’s got to go and get help so you can continue being the stable one while the other person isn’t really addressing. So, I hope the other person is getting the help that they need. So, they can look at their patterns and their anxiety, because it sounds like it’s pretty significant.
The other thing, too, and I don’t know if you have been to couples’ therapy or not, if you’re doing this on your own, but I’m going to give you the name of two really good resources for communication with couples’ therapies. These are these are both people that I know and I know well, and they’re highly regarded.
Resources of Couples
One is a woman named Michelle Wiener-Davis, hyphenated. She is in Colorado. She’s super-duper famous in the marriage therapy world. She specializes in infidelity, but she has so many great things to say. So, I would check out her stuff. We’ll put it in the show notes.
The other person is a guy named Terry Real, and it’s spelt just as it sounds, r-e-a-l. If you go on Terry’s Facebook page, Terry puts up these memes or these quotes (or whatever you want to call them) on his Facebook page, that I will tell you quite honestly on a regular basis are like a slap upside my 30-year married person head.
He is so good at just cutting to the chase. He works a lot with men. And He talks a lot about masculinity. He talks a lot about being able to generate and to be open to vulnerability in the male clients that he works with. He works with couples. Fantastic, fantastic stuff. So, I would check out both of those people as great resources.
The other thing is that if you’ve got an anxious child, and you’re saying that you’ve got a parent who’s really anxious, all the more reason for that parent to really pay attention to the anxious patterns that are being conveyed. And to know that if two people have been married for a really long time, and one of them is super anxious and the other one’s mental health is suffering, you may have some anxiety, too.
So be careful not to really generalize that one person is the anxious one and one person is the easy going one, because that’s that dichotomy that gets set up that can be really tricky. Make sure you’re looking at your own patterns, make sure that you figure out how you react to your partner. And I’m going to also give you this is this is like a nugget of gold. Is that such a thing? Yes, a nugget of gold that was told to me by my mentor, Michael, who I talk about a lot. He said, it is really important to tell the difference between something that impacts you personally and something that you have to take personally.
Now, I may even have said this phrase in other podcasts, in other episodes. I don’t remember. But that is enormously helpful when you have a partner that’s struggling. We so take it personally. His anxiety is not a personal attack on you. It’s just indicative of him being unable to cope with the uncertainty and the patterns that sound like have been around for a really long time.
So being able to put up that little bit of buffer between you so that his behavior isn’t a personal attack on you allows you to be a little bit more compassionate, allows you to certainly have direct communication, it sounds like you’re going at this in a really direct way, which is awesome. But just stand back from the taking it personally part a little bit because that’s going to give you some more room and some more ability to work together.
Robin Hutson 25:34
Lynn, there’s a lot in that question. But one other detail that I’ll repeat, too, is that their oldest child has special needs.
Lynn Lyons 25:42
I’ll find something, because I know there are people I can talk to about that. And we can put that in the show notes, too.
Robin Hutson 25:47
I think there are therapists who specialize in the unique demands of special needs parenting.
Lynn Lyons 25:52
That is a really important detail. So, I’m glad that you pointed that out. It just means that parenting becomes all the more intense and all the more exhausting in a lot of ways. There’s just a lot of emotional stuff that goes on, of course, when you’re dealing with a child with special needs.
When Both Parents are anxious
Robin Hutson 26:08
I would imagine also, you have couples where they both come in, and one says he’s the anxious one or she’s the anxious one. Ten minutes later, you’re like, “Um, I think you’re both anxious.”
Lynn Lyons 26:19
Yeah. Or sometimes they’ve got it completely backwards. Yeah. So sometimes I say like, “All right, everyone. I’ve got some news for you. I hate to break it to you.” But yeah, well, and oftentimes, it’s very… when parents come in, they’ll say, “So, we don’t know where she gets it from.” Right? And then, you know, five minutes into the conversation, one of them will go like, “Oh, God, I think I do know where she gets it from.” Right. So, there’s that moment that’s like, “Oh, crap!”
Robin Hutson 26:45
You talk about the marital snort.
Lynn Lyons 26:47
Oh, yeah. I’ll say like “So, do you think that you’re anxious?” and the person will say, “No, I’m not anxious at all.” And then the other person does that marital snort. Yeah, that’s the marital start.
Avoid “the Anxious One” Label
Robin Hutson 27:01
I would say that, obviously, I’m married to your brother. And because anxiety and mental health are just like a family topic of discussion, what I would say that I’ve learned in my marriage is that everyone’s anxious about something and never to put the absolute labels on one side or the other. Because it’s not black and white, it’s always very gray.
Lynn Lyons 27:23
Right? And it changes all the time, too. Like it shifts based on different stages of life. It’s sort of like we say, also, don’t put labels on your kids, like don’t say, like, “Oh, well, he’s the artistic one, and she’s the smart one,” or “He’s the creative one. And she’s the analytical one,” because those kind of those kind of permanent labels don’t work, and with human beings and all the things that you go through in a marriage, all the different phases of a marriage, I often talk about marriages are like a book with many chapters. And if you are in a long-term relationship, things really do shift and change over time. I hope they do. Who would want to stay the same? We can’t even if we want to.
Sometimes I wish that I specialized in couples’ therapy because I would write a book and it would be called The Marital Snort. Or maybe it should be called avoiding the marital snort. It’s a pretty passive aggressive thing that happens. So, we all… we really want to avoid passive aggressive communication and relationships.
In my office, like they’re saying it, they’re saying it in front of me like, “He’s the anxious one, and I’m very laid back,” and I feel like ooh, you just you just you just landed an arrow. Yeah, but you know what I mean, right? You just spit balled them. I could go on.
This episode really dove into all of the questions that parents might have about diagnoses and if they’re helpful or not helpful, but you know what, there’s more to be said. And so next episode, we’re going to talk about an incredibly important issue when it comes to diagnosing anxiety and depression, particularly with teenagers. It is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. And I will say that it’s the thing that probably gets me the most worked up these days. So, tune in.
Robin Hutson 29:09
And in the meantime, be sure that you join the Flusterclux Facebook group. You can submit your question to Lynn for a future episode. And thanks so much for listening.
Lynn Lyons 29:20
Robin Hutson 29:21
Lynn Lyons 29:22